Listening to noise, not hearing much

I know I shouldn't, but sometimes you can't help it.

I put on waders and headed back into the rather icky waters over at Liestoppers, which is pretty much Grand Central for those most inclined to see the Duke lacrosse/Nifong mess as a grand conspiracy involving liberals, black people, the media, corrupt police, reptilian shape-shifters, and probably the Loch Ness monster, all centered in that city perched atop the hellmouth itself, Durham.  The odd thing is, mixed in with the true loonies, there are a few people who come across as objecting out of principle.  Given that, and the fact that I was sure these folks were obsessively watching Durham for signs of Masonic child sacrifices or what not, I was sure they had some take on Eve Carson.

Funny, just like almost exactly two years ago, there's a media frenzy going on, with suspects being arrested and a lot of evidence appearing in the media appearing to implicate them.  Now, if there's one rock that the Liestoppers folks tether their ark to more than any other, it's the constitutionally protected presumption of innocence until proven guilty.  Would these stanchions of constitutional and legal ethics insist on the presumption of innocence for Lovette and Atwater? 

You can probably guess, or you can see for yourself.

Comments

[barry]

better you than me.

They should just go ahead and merge with Little Green Snotballs and be done with it.

It's not, and never has been, about justice as far as the LS crowd is concerned. It's all about racial politics and keeping black and brown people in their place.

[Locomotive Breath]

a lot of evidence appearing in the media appearing to implicate them

Er...no. A very short memory have we?

Just about exactly two years ago the only "evidence" appearing in the media was Mike Nifong's say so on his nationwide media tour.

Then actual evidence began appearing in the media. Like one of the accused lacrosse players using a far-away ATM when the crime was supposed to have occurred. Like no DNA match says the SBI. That's when certain Durham establishment types demanded a gag order.

I realize that the criminal past of these three Durhamites can't possibly be of interest to you compared to porch pissing and underage drinking by out-of-towners.

Apparently Durham was devoting so many resources to framing three innocent men that they forgot to pay attention to the real crime problem.

I hope the Durham legal establishment is taking notes as Orange Co. demonstrates how to keep your mouth shut during a criminal investigation.

p.s. Funny thing about those photos. They can implicate or exonerate. If there's one of you using a murdered woman's card, you just might find yourself under justified suspicion.

[dermite]

Your invocation of the the "constitutionally protected presumption of innocence until proven guilty" is disingenuous nonsense. Nobody on that website is (seriously) advocating anything other than a fair trial for these defendants.

Presumption of innocence does not extend to private opinions. Of course, one does risk making a fool of themselves when these opinions are informed by PC fantasies rather than facts (see potbangers).

[Michael Bacon]

Okay, so it was a bit of a stretch to equate the two situations.

The point is not to make some case for the innocence of Lovette and Atwater, nor is it to somehow try to exonerate the actions of Nifong and company (I think I've been quite clear on the latter here previously). The point is that we have, unless I've missed something (quite possible) in the news, exactly one piece of hard evidence in the Carson case that's been shared with the media, albeit a pretty strong one -- the ATM photo of Atwater. Similarly, there's a cell phone call to Atwater from the slain Duke graduate student's phone -- making it look not so good for that fellow. However, insofar as has been shared with the public, there is not one bit of evidence tying Lovette to any of this, other than his circumstantial ties to Atwater and his previous arrest record. I don't mean to imply that such evidence doesn't exist, simply that we haven't seen it.

Now, I do remember things differently from two years ago. The evidence we had shared with us was that the medical examination found bruises and vaginal lacerations consistent with the allegation of rape, and the presence of semen. There were reports of a corroborating 911 call, which at the time we didn't know was Kim Reynolds. And there was the report of the security officer at the Kroger's that Mangum was acting very strange, which women who've just been raped are known to do (just how ridiculously bizarre was, again, not yet known).

Ah, but the previous arrests? The burglary charges? The rap sheet? What about reputation? Well, again, I have to point out that one of the accused players (was it Seligmann?) was accused of assault, potentially a hate crime, in DC at the time. And yes, the players had rap sheets, and the team and the house had a reputation for wild and raucous parties. (Not to mention that the word in the air, rightly or no, is that Duke has a particularly bad acquaintance rape problem, something that friends who went to Duke in the recent past attest to.)

I am saying now exactly what I said two years ago. It is not the job of the public to obsessively follow this case, reading every bit of evidence, and serving as some sort of second mass jury in absentia. That is for the legal system to do, and it is the job of the public to observe the actions of our legal officials and make sure they are following the standard codes of professional conduct. And yes, it's quite my opinion that this judgment need not be done mid-case, as the Peterson case nicely demonstrated.

[Michael Bacon]

dermite: While I agree with your reading of the law, insisting upon it at this point is a little too precious. K.C. Johnson got on the best-seller list by accusing not just the public figures (including a few who actually deserved it), but private individuals of implying that the players were guilty, "Until Proven Innocent." A few notable private figures who had the misfortune of being quoted in the newspaper have received harassing and threatening emails and midnight phone calls.

As for the potbangers, the way the legend of these folks has grown in the fevered imaginations of the tinfoil hat crowd is remarkable. This one rather adolescent activity had little to do with "PC fantasies" and a lot to do with people being petty and wanting to get back at some noisy neighbors they didn't much like.

[Locomotive Breath]

Lovette was in an ATM photo, in the SUV similar to Carson's. Atwater was in a convenience store photo trying to use her card. Which means that they were both photographed and arrested using those photographs.

Those of us paying attention know this.

The evidence we had shared with us was that the medical examination found bruises and vaginal lacerations consistent with the allegation of rape, and the presence of semen.

All on Mike Nifong's say so. We didn't have the actual medical exam. And the fact that he was talking like that was exactly the warning sign that his motives were less than professional.

Those of us paying attention knew this.

There were reports of a corroborating 911 call, which at the time we didn't know was Kim Reynolds.

Durham police knew almost immediately that it was Kim Roberts/Pittman and delayed telling the public. Which obviously was a cause for concern when they 'fessed up a very short time later. Furthermore, Roberts/Pittman said in the phone call that her girlfriend was fine which was in direct contradiction to the claim of rape.

Those of us paying attention knew this.

We also knew that the supposed rape took place very early on a Tuesday morning and the police didn't get around to a search warrant until the following Friday. Which says that until Gottlieb and Nifong got into the act the police strongly suspected that there was no crime.

Those of us paying attention knew this.

Well, again, I have to point out that one of the accused players (was it Seligmann?) was accused of assault, potentially a hate crime, in DC at the time. And yes, the players had rap sheets, and the team and the house had a reputation for wild and raucous parties.

Finnerty (not Seligman) had been accused of assault in DC. Both the other guy involved, Bloxum, and the DC prosecutor specifically declined to call it a hate crime. Finnerty's crime was to get into an insult-filled shouting match and to throw a fake punch or two which touched no one. The only time he came in contact with anyone else was when he turned and WALKED AWAY and the other guy sucker punched him in the back of the head. By the way, the judge refused to allow testimony from the bar owner as to the origination of the conflict.

Those of us paying attention knew this.

And yes, the players had rap sheets, and the team and the house had a reputation for wild and raucous parties. (Not to mention that the word in the air, rightly or no, is that Duke has a particularly bad acquaintance rape problem, something that friends who went to Duke in the recent past attest to.)

"Wild and raucous parties" are not a precursor to a violent gang rape, Furthermore, you've now characterized the entire Duke campus as having a "particularly bad acquaintance rape problem". How does that in any way relate to a violent gang rape of a total stranger? In contrast, B&E and weapons convictions are exactly the kinds of crimes that are precursors to murder. Suppose I say all of Durham has a particularly bad gang problem and that argues for the guilt of the accused. Do you read yourself when you write this stuff?

I am saying now exactly what I said two years ago. It is not the job of the public to obsessively follow this case, reading every bit of evidence, and serving as some sort of second mass jury in absentia. That is for the legal system to do, and it is the job of the public to observe the actions of our legal officials and make sure they are following the standard codes of professional conduct.

You contradict yourself. Nifong was counting on the public not following the details (as you have demonstrated that you have not) and thereby hoping to get away with it. It was mainly because enough people were following things closely that he was exposed. Public apathy and indifference is exactly the way that public officials get away with misdeeds.

[JT]

When the names and hometowns of every lacrosse player (where their families live) is handed out to every Durham psychopath, and Victoria Peterson encourages the "guilty"-chanting New Black Panthers (homophobic moronic beasts) to burn down the lacrosse house (there could have been pets in there and everything) with the smiling approval of Durham behind her, then is endorsed for City Council by the Durham Committee for Affairs Of Black People.....that says it all about that town. With all the REAL crime in Durham?! If you don't like how Durham is viewed now, you should have spoken up then.

[JT]

P.S. If the potbangers are such silly little trivial things, why don't you put a link to the Liestoppers photo gallery of them? Let people judge for themselves about Durham.

[Michael Bacon]

JT,

I'm not about to defend the rather, er, eccentric views of Ms. Peterson (who also happens to vehemently swear to the innocence of Michael Peterson), nor will I accept her being lumped into some sort of generalized left-wing category (she's a lifelong fan of Jesse Helms and Ronald Reagan). Neither will I try to explain the obsessive machinations of Lavonia Allison in rigging that endorsement. She's in 10 short years taken the DCABP from the most powerful, well organized, and indispensable political force in Durham under Ken Spaulding to the running-on-fumes, effective only at the margins organization it is today. I've already written pretty extensively about "real" crime in Durham, and have more coming up this week if I get around to it. And I guess you're new around here, but yes, for the whateverth time, I did speak up then, in public forums. Most of it is available in the PAC2 list archives if you care to check.

You're welcome to post the link to the photo gallery -- last I checked A HREF tags aren't blocked here -- although I can't imagine what your point is.

Mr. or Mrs. Breath,

I was going to let this drop, but since I'm writing, I have to ask again. Were I to go to the county courthouse wherever you live, and pull up a list of all the pending cases involving a UCR Type I felony (murder, robbery, aggravated assault, arson, burglary, larceny, or sexual assault), would you be able to recite with the same efficiency all of the relevant facts of the case; critique the performance of the police investigators and the representatives of the DA's office; and speak to the existence and relative worth of both incriminating and exculpatory evidence? If so, well, damn, you're a better person than me in that regard. If not, then how does that represent equal protection under the law? Barry has quite sufficiently documented that this is certainly not an isolated incident.

You'll counter that none of this acquits the various parties in Durham, and I agree. I'll say again that I support both compensatory and punitive damages, so long as they are fair, reasonable, and in line with precedent (and not built on bizarre legal arguments designed ot milk more cash out of the case). But again, relentlessly obsessing over a single case, absent any notion of context, does not advance the cause of justice, but rather impedes it.

[Rhonda Fleming]

If Liestoppers is such a wonderful truth seking site, then why have they closed the message board on the blog page? Must you be a part of their clique? So much for censorship, and their ironic claims to seek truth and justice, dispicable!

Rhonda Fleming
Sister Of Durham Citizen, STILL Unsolved, Neglected, And Refusing To Give Up Until There Is Indeed Justice For Allen Croft!

justice4all2005@yahoo.com

[Locomotive Breath]

Were I to go to the county courthouse wherever you live, and pull up a list of all the pending cases involving a UCR Type I felony (murder, robbery, aggravated assault, arson, burglary, larceny, or sexual assault), would you be able to recite with the same efficiency all of the relevant facts of the case; critique the performance of the police investigators and the representatives of the DA's office; and speak to the existence and relative worth of both incriminating and exculpatory evidence?

The friends and family of every single person who's been accused of a crime, especially the falsely accused, can do exactly that. The Duke lacrosse team has lots of friends and family. Enough to achieve the critical mass of a site like liestoppers.

The problem here is that you're expressing an opinion without being well informed. But I support your right to demonstrate your ignorance in public.

[barry]

But I support your right to demonstrate your ignorance in public.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Locomotive Breath]

You had your facts wrong and then derided me for paying close enough attention to have the facts right. It's you whose ignorance is demonstrated.

[Rhonda Fleming]

3 years ago May 11, 2005 is the day the nightmare began for my only brother and family, when he was found executed 3 weeks before retiring from IBM in Durham NC. Words cannot begin to express the agony knowing he was not only beaten then executed, his body parts stolen, then what was "left" of him burned like an animal. No horror movie or nightmare could compare to the grisly reality that has touched not only my family, but many others as well!

Crimes against humanity exist 24/7 in every part of our globe, meanwhile our government not only knows and condones, it also participates in! I NEVER would have any clue of these awful truths had we not experienced and witnessed them, and is why I have gone public from right after my brother was killed, promised him, God, our mother, and others who too have been slain by hired hit men whom many are killed is by our own police. Murders, drugs, prostitution, sexual slavery, kidnapping, numerous crimes ending with trafficking of human organs, dead or alive.

There are reports by our own Government Accounting Office for many years telling the rise in this heinous reality, yet media will not touch it, and few are willing to come forward to expose because it is a "business" making billions of dollars to our broken country from the blood and souls of "strangers."

The global demand and profit by far exceeds any other criminal act where a kidney alone can fetch a million dollars. Half of India's population exists with only one, sold so they could live?! Where is the irony here?! Looking the other way only lets evil win, and these are truths that MUST be exposed!

I am personally begging whomever reads this to write to the Governor, and US Courts, and request action be taken to re-open my brother's death, and to help save lives! I alone cannot stop the endless cases of rape and slaughter, but "United" we can let our Government know that "WE" the people have rights, and acknowledge what is going on in again, not just our nation, but globally!

I know "The Powers That Be" do NOT want these horrific TRUTHS to see the light of day, and have been personally threatened with death. This is why I have gone public from the beginning, and have suffered and learned too much to look away and do nothing! I want JUSTICE for my most beloved brother, who was such an integral center of our family that has been completely destroyed. Nothing will bring Jack, or any of the innocents, but going public and yelling from the rooftops can start a chain of events that will lead to change and become aware of what is REALLY going on in our OWN Government! You will be not only shocked, you will be speechless!

I only wished what I am saying was a lie and a bad dream, but the reality is the brutal truth, and no words to describe the torment and rage that we all are indeed worth more dead than alive. PLEASE read the following links, and PLEASE write to the US Court on behalf of my family, so that we can finally have the TRUTH, JUSTICE, and RIGHTS that WE have as CITIZENS!

Respectfully,
Rhonda Fleming
Cleveland, Ohio
justice4all2005@yahoo.com

Sister of my dearest friend Allen Jackson Croft Jr, who was found executed May 11, 2005 under a trestle in Durham North Carolina. He lived at 106 Carlion in Durham, and was only 3 weeks from retiring when he was "suddenly" found executed and "staged" to look like a suicide. Law Enforcement have fought us, threatened to charge me for harassment, neglected countless requests to every department and official in the state, and in Washington, and have been left like a dog chasing it's own tail, and enough is enough! They CANNOT be ALLOWED to get away with what they did to him, and others, and as long as I have breath in my body I will NEVER give in until there is JUSTICE FOR JACK!


Please write to: Federal Circuit Clerk/Executive

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